“Whatever” Is Not a Salary and Won’t Pay the Bills
Originally published on Julie Pippert: Using My Words.
It was a pretty innocuous mother’s club meeting, and we were talking about babysitters. I don’t even recall why it came up, the talk about babysitters. Conversation unrolls so organically in these meetings, these times we get together, without children, and get to just talk.
But sitters came up in conversation and the turn of that conversation surprised me. Greatly. Apparently around here it’s bad manners to quote an hourly rate for one’s babysitting services.
“You know what gets me?” a mom said, “You know what sitters I prefer? Who I pay the most to? The ones who say ‘oh just pay me whatever.’” She went on to explain that (and this is my paraphrase not her exact statement) to her, it came across as very forward, rude even, when these sitters said they charged X dollars per hour.
My mind rolled that concept around for a minute: it’s cheeky and rude to state upfront how much you charge if you’re a babysitter.
I looked around the room, seeking the people who ducked their heads to avoid disagreeing or the people shaking a no with their heads, and waited for someone to say, “Well for heaven’s sake, it’s a business. Of course they need to—and should!—tell you in advance how much they charge! How else will they learn to value their own worth and services? How else will they learn to deal with people and money? How else will you be able to figure out how much to budget and how much cash to have on hand for the time?”
But not one person did. Not one ducked head. Not one shaking head. Not one verbal alternate perspective.
Teaching my girls how to pull the rope for themselves.
I did, however, see a fair number of nodding heads, and then a couple of moms chimed in with verbal agreement.
My mind rolled that concept around for a few more minutes.
Do many people feel this way—and do girls believe that if they are passive and vague they’ll get paid a fair fee? Do they learn that they are powerless when it comes to receiving payment, that it’s always in the other person’s hands? Do they build up this expectation in a lifelong way?
I was stunned–stunned that girls do this (what? are you kidding? NAME YOUR PRICE!!!). I’ve had a few sitters pull this on me and I instantly morphed into my father, delivering a lecture about the importance of developing key business interaction skills. I put my own twist on it, of course, and tried to soften the lecture, but I gave the lecture anyway: you offered a service and that’s worth payment, and it’s okay to tell me how much your rate is.
One young girl I told this to pulled out the same tired line in response, “I just don’t feel okay, you know, asking for money, it just seems wrong for some reason.”
I have absolutely never ever understood this sensation.
I feel very, very good asking for money. And I feel even better when I get it.
I told her that she needed to practice and she’d be great.
…actually, I wasn’t sure what the monetary exchange rate was currently for a ‘whatever.’
It’s not only the young girls, either. I negotiated for a sitter with a sitter’s mother one time and asked, “How much does she charge per hour?”
The mother said, “Oh just pay her whatever.”
I said, “Oh, hum. Well, umm. What does she charge other people?”
The mother repeated, with a wave of her hand, “Oh you know, whatever.”
I bit back an irritated response that actually, I wasn’t sure what the monetary exchange rate was currently for a ‘whatever.’ Instead I said, “I’ll pay a buck an hour…does that sound fair?” It sounded ridiculous to me and I thought the mom would get the point.
“Yeah, that sounds fine! Thanks!” the mom said.
I mentally banged my head on the wall. I paid the sitter the going rate around here, which I happen to know because (a) I use sitters with some regularity and (b) last year I hosted an open house for moms and babysitters.
At that event, I created a spreadsheet and fed in data about each sitter who attended: name, phone, age, experience and skills, preferences or comments and…hourly rate. Half the girls put “whatever.”
“You put ‘whatever’ in the hourly rate column,” I said, “What do you charge per hour, you know, a number? You need to let the moms know your rate so they know how to budget.”
“Oh no, I totally don’t know,” the flustered girls cried.
“Here,” I said, “Look at the sheet, here’s how much the other sitters charge for one child, and here’s their rates for two and also for three or more kids. It’s good to have a scale like that. Do you want to use the same numbers these girls use?”
But they demurred and my spreadsheet has a column for rate that has ‘whatever’ for half the entries. I never call any of those girls. I only use the ones who know what they’re worth, the ones who let me know how much to budget.
I admit it: the other ones seem flighty on some level to me.
I’m not a fan of ‘whatever’ as an answer for anything.
At the mom’s meeting, I stated this opinion. “I am the absolute opposite,” I said with a little uncomfortable laugh–here we go again, Julie the hard head freak mom, the one they all shake their heads about–and added, “I don’t prefer the wishy-washy girls who say ‘whatever.’ I like to know their fee so I can budget, and anyway, they need to be able to discuss money.”
I got the sense that a second head–maybe shaped like an ass–grew out of my neck just then, based on the looks I got.
Imagine that! Expecting these girls to name a price! Demanding they use a degree of professionalism in their babysitting service. Who do I think I am. Cheeky. That’s what I am.
The majority clearly felt it was really out of line, and preferred to discreetly slip whatever amount they wanted over to the babysitters.
I was stunned and stymied to learn I was in the minority–or maybe all by myself on this one. And there I had gone and told all my sitters to put on their big girl panties and name their fair hourly rate for childcare.
I wondered how many local girls I ruined with my apparently untoward advice. Hopefully none. Probably not one listened to me. Ten years from how they will probably be disgruntled coworkers who earn less than their cohorts. They will probably be angry friends who don’t get paid the going rate or on time because they don’t invoice properly. They will be frustrated adult women who don’t know how to talk about money because they never learned and on top of that were given the impression that it was wrong–dirty? naughty? out of line? unfeminine?–to discuss fair pay for services rendered.
A very long time ago the very rich and the very oppressed women never discussed money. To do so might reveal a need or quest for money, which might mark one as bourgeois or trade. I can promise that the vast majority of us are in fact quite bourgeois and are frequently on a quest for needed money.
So why is it still considered so tacky by so many to be on a quest for money and expect to be paid for services rendered?
Do men feel this too? Or is it truly largely just women?
Is the objection simply because the sitters are girls? Would a male sitter stating an hourly rate come across as too forward? Or is it because they are youths, not adults?
I truly think it is a matter of both factors: young and female.
They see flighty and silly valued and rewarded.
My husband imagines that here at my blog I will probably find some people who think and believe as I do, but he also thinks that the vast majority probably find any money discussion uncomfortable and prefer a big fat “whatever.” It stymies him too, this preference for wishy-washy whatever, but he also thinks few people ever feel comfortable placing a dollar value on the things they do.
Babysitting can be such a valuable life and business lesson: how to learn the fair pay rate for your field, how to determine the appropriate pay for what you offer, and how to negotiate fair pay.
But we aren’t all on the same page. Not all people–male or female–believe girls need to be equally and adequately prepared for a full professional and personal life. Not all people believe women need to be strong and assertive.
I’m ready to see our society accept confidence, assertiveness, directness as well as politeness and kindness from women. I’m ready to see our society allow women to value themselves, even if it means requesting fair pay for services rendered.
But I’m also ready to see our society respect a variety of approaches and styles to achieve this end.
I don’t think it’s right that we need women (and men) to fulfill a stereotyped gender role that is predominantly accepted in our professional culture: the “masculine” way of doing things.
The babysitters don’t need to be aggressive, but passive aggressive shouldn’t be the technique either.
I’d like to see it no longer be necessary that girls put on a silly act in order to be accepted.
And believe me…although I think that the discomfort is real and quite a few girls truly and sincerely feel more comfortable ducking their heads, shrugging their shoulders and saying ‘whatever,’ I also truly think at least an equal number would feel okay saying, “I charge $7 per hour for two kids.”
But teens aren’t stupid–they have picked up on the idea that people are not quite comfortable with an assertive young woman. They see flighty and silly valued and rewarded.
They put a dimming drape over their light to try to accommodate, until they find the rare person who will accept and value their style, even though they are girls.
Apparently, I am the only one who is surprised to find out that this is such a concrete concept, shaped all the way into a more, where moms expect sitters to say “Oh whatever” when the payment discussion comes up.
We’re teaching them who they can be during these key teen years. Shouldn’t we be teaching them it’s okay to be all they can be?
What do you think? Are you comfortable talking about money? Do you ask for fair pay? Are you okay with it when people who do work for you ask for fair pay? How do you think this affects women down the line in the working world? Do I have a second head shaped like an ass?
ETA per Mad’s request:
In MA we paid an average of $12 per hour for sitters, most of whom were from one of the two universities that flanked our town. I say an average because some local teens were $10 and the university students were about $15. I tended to use sitters who were 16+ years old. That seemed to be who I had access to through a variety of contacts. The average age was 18. I noticed rate per hour increased as the sitters got older. I noticed a surcharge for babies and diaper-wearers. I felt that was fair. In MA I had one child, so I’m not sure how much more than one child cost.
In SE Texas we pay $4-7 per hour for two children. I tend to use very young teens, mainly 14 year olds. I’m comfortable with this because my children are older and pretty independent. I haven’t tapped the university so I’m not sure what they charge, but I expect it’s $7-10 per hour. I tend to pay $5 per hour, which I think is fair because in general, the teen sits (read: sleeps) on my couch while the kids sleep upstairs. Also it’s easy to add by fives in my head.
In all honesty, I prefer the 14 year olds. The younger teens have done a great job of being serious, focused on the kids, and available.
Not one male came to our babysitter open house party or has signed up for babysitting here. I don’t know anyone who has a male sitter. From what I’ve heard I don’t think they would get much work.
So yes, our entire directory of babysitters is exclusively female. We also have a community newsletter where teens can advertise as workers. They are usually babysitters and always girls. If I knew a boy and felt comfortable with him as a childcare-giver (my same criteria for girls BTW) I’d use him.
I didn’t discuss the exact amount of money in my post because the point to me isn’t how much specifically so much as it is to be specific.
But I agree it would be interesting to compare across regions.
Editor’s Pick by MommyTime from Mommy’s Martini: I only discovered Julie Pippert a few months ago, but I was immediately drawn in by how thoughtful her posts are. She writes on politics, parenting, feminism, and anything else that strikes her fancy, all with the same careful attention to detail and consideration of various sides of any issue. You will find, if you click over to Julie Pippert: Using My Words, post after post that will draw you into conversations and make you think long after you have stopped reading. Read more Julie Pippert or subscribe. For all her readers’ comments, which became a great conversation on babysitters, rates, and teaching our girls to value themselves, read the original post.
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July 15th, 2008
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I think there’s more to the story than the girls simply feeling uncomfortable discussing money. It’s the undervaluing of women’s work. I bet those mothers are thinking “I do this all the time for free” and so, in a way, any dollar amount seems too much and too crass to them.
I was a nanny with excellent references a couple of years ago. I was conducting a search for a new job and was asked by a mother who was very eager to hire me what I was expecting to be paid. For a job requiring 8-6, M-F, and a 1-hr commute when I knew I could get something closer to home (I was in high demand), I responded that I wouldn’t accept less than 12$ and CRINGED because I realized that was too low. Her response? First, silence. Then she stammered out, “I was thinking something more like $8.50!” That is less than minimum wage in Ontario, where I live. For a nanny whose previous references had said things like “Debbie is an angel sent by God who RESCUED our family” (I am not even exaggerating a little bit!)
In my opinion, hiring a nanny - or even good childcare in general - is a privilege, a luxury, even. Childcare providers often enjoy the work they do, but that doesn’t mean that they’re doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. The mother does it for nothing, but that does’t mean that the caregiver should have to do it for next-to-nothing.
I think it’s less about discussing money in general and more about assigning monetary value to the work that women and mothers do. And that just makes me angry. (Can you tell?)
Debbie, I completely agree with you and that was my larger point. This is where we learn to value our work and what we do, as youths. This is where we teach young women to know that their work is valuable, and they are valuable. This is where young women learn that you have to talk about money. This is where we have to begin valuing “women’s” work. Childcare is expensive, but as a wise friend of mine said, “Who wants to advocate for cheap childcare? They’re our children and we know it’s a tough job!”
Great comment.
I can’t believe $8. Around here, kids earn $5-$8 just for sitting in the evening. College aged people earn $10-$12. And that’s just local easy sit-while-kids-sleep rates.
$8! Holy crap! And that’s Canadian, right? Here, we pay our $18 year old sitter $12/hour in the evenings for 2 toddlers & our daycare sitter, who watches our boys in her home, gets $8.75 an hour.
GReat post, Jules. And I think you’re right - we’re uncomfortable placing a value on what we do. The unfortunate thing is that it follows women for the rest of their lives.
Yep, that’s $8 Canadian. I can’t believe that a sitter in the US can make as much as $12.
Julie - You wrote a great post. This is something I’ve been simmering on for a while, and I’m glad to see it so well articulated here! Also, thanks for putting the ” ” on “women’s” work.
This was a great post.
Not everyone is assertive. I would have curled up in a ball and died if I had to put a number on myself as a babysitter. (Doesn’t mean I don’t wish I had had it in me to do, though.)
I don’t think that you are wrong, people should feel comfortable enough to state what they are worth.
However, I will add that I am both flighty AND very silly and I find myself pretty damn valuable.
Maybe the “World” values tha
I couldn’t believe the Whatevers I got when i started paying sitters. I ALWAYS had a price when I was sitting. I just stopped asking, honestly. I started saying, ‘This is what I need, I have 3 kids, and I pay X.’ And I always hire 13 year olds. I find them way more attentive than 17 year olds, for sure.
My current sitter, who I found through craiglist, told me last time that I could start paying her “Less”. And what is less, I asked. I dunno, whatever.
Grrr.
I told her to come up with a number and get back to me when she had one.
Great article, Julie!
Thank you for this post Julie! I think the larger issue here of women not understanding or valuing their worth is more important than ever.
As more and more women attempt to work from home and own their own businesses, (myself included) they absolutely need to have the skills and confidence that will make them successful in the business world. It needs to start now, with us, and with our children, and web 2.0 is helping make that happen.
Loralee, good point. Not everyone is assertive, or feels easily comfortable with things like naming a price.
But, there are times, I think, that we have to step out of our comfort zone, and the more we repeat that, the more comfortable I think we get. My dad lectured me to the ends of the earth and back about naming my price and I had to state my price. Eventually, I got to this point in life where I can comfortably state my price. It was no surprise to me when that study came out showing that women who name their price earn on average something like 25% more than women who, more or less, say ‘whatever.’
Mr Lady, I think you gave her a valuable lesson at a time when it’s okay to be learning.
Catnip, amen.
Thanks!
Thanks so much to everyone who is reading this and commenting. So good to hear from you!! Such great points and comments.
This is a terrific post, Julie - dead on target about all the good things women talk themselves out of going after for the sake of being “nice.”
This is a terrific post, Julie - dead on target about all the good things women talk themselves out of going after for the sake of being “nice.”
I own a small business and I also run an online forum for my field of business, so I’ve interacted with thousands of business owners, both male and female.
Unlike those in your meeting ducking their heads or complicitly nodding so as not to rock the boat, I’ll offer a different opinion.
But first, let me say that I think what you’re doing, by trying to teach young people (female or male) to learn to value the services they offer and not be afraid to ask for that value in compensation is fantastic. Professional athletes have well paid agents to do that for them, but most of us ordinary folks do not, and I find that among business owners in my field, and especially those who are newer entrepreneurs, many struggle greatly with this issue. Some will even go so far as to be critical of other business owners who charge far higher rates, implying or even straight out calling another business owner a rip-off artist. Unless you’re somehow selling one service but providing a lesser service, I can’t quite comprehend that argument. But I hear it frequently.
I see it as a confidence issue and an assertiveness issue that pervades both genders, and I find it to be one of the bigger reasons why so many entrepreneurs in my line of work go out of business within a few years of their launch.
I was the same way for a long while. I used to pass proposals across the table to clients like they were live grenades; I could’ve used a business coach like you about a decade ago. And you are dead on - the more you step out of that comfort zone and “name your price,” the easier it gets.
I’d have a hard time saying anything negative about instilling confidence in young girls, but I would ask that you consider it’s not just girls that have this affliction.
Excellent post.
when i was a nanny, i cost a lot. i knew that going into it, and for a while, it made me a little uncomfortable. was i charging too much? was i being unfair? i even wrote a post on my blog asking my mommy readers to give me their thoughts.
but the thing is, i had a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree from one of the best universities in the world. i had years of experience. i speak multiple languages. i sing, dance, read, write, do art projects. and more than anything, i love kids and i’m good at working with them. so i learned that i am worth my higher price, and i learned to interview with families who would value my work enough to pay a higher price for it.
i don’t think i ever could have done that if i had learned to quote “whatever” as a teenage babysitter. thanks, julie, for this wonderful post.
Julie, I loved this post the first time I read it and I’m so glad to see it here, too.
After the initial reading, a sitter came to my house and when I asked her how much, she said “Whatever.” I had been paying my sitters $10 an hour, so I said, “How much is whatever? $10? $12?”
She said, “Well, closer to $12.”
I wanted to print your post and hand it to her right then.
“Whatever” is a frustrating response to virtually any question. And the idea of paying a person more because she is noncommittal, or of choosing not to hire a person because she actually answers your question, is completely screwy and manipulative–especially when we seem to be talking almost entirely about girls and women here.
After reading these comments, though, I want to bring up the issue of socioeconomic class. I’ve approached childcare from rather a different financial angle and encounter perhaps unusual dynamics in the pay question. We had our son when we were both graduate students. Because we live in a university community, we hire undergraduates and other grad students (both men and women) to help out with our child. The grad students are up front about whether and how much they need to be paid; they’re as poor and busy as us, so we all feel comfortable negotiating. The undergrads, however, have fewer expenses and wildly more extra cash than we do–and we all know that they don’t need the money and we do. Their ‘oh, you can pay me whatever’ is more an awkward reflection of their knowledge of our relative financial situations than of a gendered lack of esteem for their own labor. It’s probably equally problematic, but it’s different.
I know all too well that, as Debbie comments, quality childcare is a luxury–and it’s one that, except in tiny occasional doses, we can’t afford. My husband and I manage to carry on two more-than-full-time careers without substantive childcare by, especially during the school year, barely seeing each other or sleeping, and cutting out all leisure time/activity (including stuff like daily showers, cleaning the apartment, etc.).
I hope that, in arguing that childcare providers deserve excellent pay (which is absolutely true), no one’s implying that the children of financially struggling parents deserve non-”quality” care. Our careers give us flexible enough schedules that we can mostly swap our son between us and work while we should be sleeping or whatever–but most two-job families lack that luxury. Some people looking for inexpensive, quality childcare are doing that not to screw over childcare providers but because they have no other viable options and they love their children too much to leave them with someone who’s incompetent or even just ‘okay.’ This problem is tied up with larger societal issues outside the scope of the post (poverty, lack of state and employer support for childcare in our culture, restricted opportunities for part-time and flexible work schedules, etc., etc.)–it’s not the fault or responsibility of the childcare providers–but it seems worth remembering.
I’m going to spin in a completely different direction here:
At least one of those girls who quotes “whatever” is a business genius. She is confident that she will get the jobs because she has a great product, and she is confident that she will receive fair, if not more than fair return, for her product because she is both great at her job and because she knows that people are uncomfortable paying more than a quote, but very comfortable paying more than the average rate if they are not capped.
Do you see? As the example of the woman who brought up the issue in the first place attests, in at least one case that sitter is getting paid more than anyone else.
This is the RadioHead strategy of marketing and pricing.
But, as you say, for most of the sitters it’s probably just a matter of not being confident enough to set a price and tell adults what they ought to pay. I was like that when I used to babysit (yes, guys babysit; my path was chosen early it seems :} ). But don’t think that they don’t know what the going price is; they talk to each other. If they lack confidence in something it isn’t really in the price of the service, it’s in their product. They don’t know if they’re very good at what they do.
That’s what they need to be taught. Pricing savvy will follow.
@ Jennifer. I definitely agree that parents who struggle financially deserve quality childcare as well. Which is where, I believe, either extendend family or government subsidies (like they have in Quebec - $5 a day daycare) need to step in to support the family.
The woman that wanted to hire me at $8 explained that she couldn’t afford more, because she and her husband had chosen to work for a non-profit organization. She talked about their values, how they felt that working in jobs that gave back to society was more important than earning high salaries. I certainly agree, but that puts a family in a catch-22. Unless free childcare from the grandparents is available, or government subsidies are suddenly raining down from the sky, quality child care at a low price is going to be hard to find.
And really, unless it’s childcare that is free from the grandparents or subsidized by the government, how is it a fair income for the caregiver if the price is low enough for these low-income families to afford?
Catch-22.
Great thoughts! I think that the disparity among areas and age is right on too, having lived in TX, and now in CT. I also can’t find younger babysitters here willing to babysit, while I loved using 14 and younger in TX (and paying them less!).
What I don’t like about “whatever” is that I don’t want them to sit and not want to come back because I underpaid them, but I think that they end up getting paid more than they would dare to ask in general.
I also have gotten “whatever” from the moms as well.
Julie rocks.
We pay up to $16/hr here outside Boston.
Your point is absolutely right. ‘Whatever” makes it really hard to be fair, and we are dealing with a business transaction.
I have to admit, at the end of an evening, I have always found it really awkward to work out how much we owe and to hand the money over. Why? There’s something about babysitting that seems like it’s not quite a business transaction, or maybe we just wish it wasn’t…
Food for thought. Thanks!
Katrin
co-author Mothers Need TIme-Outs, Too
http://www.momstimeouts.com
Thank you! I was floored — absolutely FLOORED — the first time a babysitter told me “whatever”. I spent 15 years as a professional earning a high salary, and it took me a few years to realize I’d get what I asked for every time if I had the guts to ask. Then I quickly figured out that if I asked for MORE than what I wanted, I got that, too, and people valued me more because they just assumed that was my worth. When it comes to financial negotiations, perception often becomes reality. I can’t wait to teach my daughter and son that lesson.
Money is an uncomfortable topic in any negotiation. But the least uncomfortable person wins every single time. Good for you for spelling that out for the young girls who work for you.
I totally agree with you on the effects this has on women later in life. Look at female dominated professions like teaching and nursing. Women are still underpaid for the crap jobs they do in heels with a smile on their faces!
This was a thought provoking article. I haven’t ever thought of it in terms like this before.
Before we moved out of town, we always used the same sitter and she charged “whatever”. She was excellent with the kids and did basic household chores while we gone (as in washed the dishes they dirtied up and cleaned up after herself) we tended to pay her well.
Now, that we have to find someone new, I probably won’t use anyone who says “whatever” or at least not without a lecture in valuing yourself and how her time is important also.
You’re right, it is a business and although I don’t like to discuss money, it is important to stand up for yourself.
Just found this post. Fascinating discussion. We rarely use sitters - haven’t found someone convenient that I would trust - sad, but true.
I do however have a great family friend who will be watching my son for 3 hours every month, while I co-op at my daughter’s preschool.
How sad is it that I am wary of asking her how much her hourly rate is precisely because I don’t want to make her uncomfortable?
I am more likely to chat with her - put a figure to her and ask if she’s okay with that - but on reflection - that may make her more uncomfortable, and much less likely to tell me it’s not okay because it will be obvious that I think it is - ugh!
You know, I’ve been contemplating the way I was raised and my own lack of self-confidence a lot lately. I’ve just recently brought a little girl into the world and I want to be sure to give her what I didn’t receive. Your post really hits home. I was a “whatever” girl. For one of my jobs I inserted ads into Sunday newspapers and built gigantic stacks of papers ready for next morning delivery. I ended up with permanent back pain due to a sprain and that woman always paid me “whatever” for about 4 hours of work each Saturday. I remember coming home with just a five-dollar bill once. I hated the job so badly and wanted to quit but I felt obligated for some odd reason. I cried when I finally told her I didn’t want to do it anymore and she responded by calling me a quitter. Cut to 30 years old, over qualified for my job and under paid, I went to my boss to ask for a raise. I didn’t want to. My then husband had been berating me about it. So, what do you think I did when talking to my boss? Yep, I cried because I felt uncomfortable asking and I did not get a raise. I avoid the dirty subject of money to this day. I’m 37.